An Enneagram Conversation

Chris Schoolcraft joins us on Dental All-Stars to discuss Enneagrams – a conversational tool that aids self-understanding and teamwork, fostering growth in nuanced ways.


About Chris Schoolcraft

Chris Schoolcraft brings creative insight to his leadership and coaching that is born from his rich experiences working in diverse socio-economic, organizational, and theological settings. Chris is passionate about serving as a catalyst for leaders in religious, non-profit, and corporate settings. He excels at encouraging leaders to sharpen their focus, reach their goals, and cultivate leadership that makes an impact.

About Shelly VanEpps

Shelly is the VP of Business Development & a Mastery Coach with All-Star Dental Academy. By aiding in the growth and expansion of All-Star, Shelly’s passion for dentistry allows the company to focus on guiding dentists and their teams towards achieving their vision of a successful dental practice. Because each office has their own definition of “success” Shelly focuses her attention on customized coaching by applying her 21 years in the dental field to each department within the office. In addition, as a John Maxwell Certified Leadership Coach, Shelly enjoys working with doctors and office managers on shifting their approach from a managerial approach to a more effective leadership style.

About Alex Nottingham JD MBA

Alex is the CEO and Founder of All-Star Dental Academy®. He is a former Tony Robbins top coach and consultant, having worked with companies upwards of $100 million. His passion is to help others create personal wealth and make a positive impact on the people around them. Alex received his Juris Doctor (JD) and Master of Business Administration (MBA) from Florida International University.

Episode Transcript

Transcript performed by A.I. Please excuse the typos.


This is Dental All-Stars, where we bring you the best in dentistry on marketing, management, and training. Here’s your host, Alex Nottingham. Welcome to Dental All-Stars, and we’re going to be talking about the Enneagram today, and our guest is Chris Schoolcraft. And we also have our VP of Business Growth and Development, Shelley Van Epps, as well as one of our top mastery coaches. So Chris, you are an expert.


On Enneagram, you have a very interesting background. You’re a coach, personal development coach, and I wanted to have Shelly on the call because she’s certified at Enneagram, has been doing some training. I dabbled in Enneagram. It’s a very fascinating personal development tool. So could you give us a little bit of background about you, Chris, as well as what got you into the Enneagram and about the Enneagram in general?


I have been a Christian pastor for about 27 years. And that has always been a calling to help people, to walk alongside people, to be a part of people’s journey spiritually and in terms of identity, purpose, all those types of things. And so maybe about eight years ago, someone tried to introduce me to the Enneagram and I was a little resistant at first. I’ve done a lot of personality-based things.


And when I experienced the Enneagram first, it was actually used as a way of kind of talking about people. And so I wasn’t really open to it at the moment, but I was going through, I was burning out at my job, I was really struggling, and I needed a tool and a way to move through all of that, and nothing I was trying to do it. And so a colleague of mine kind of reintroduced me back to the Enneagram.


It really hit home then because it described everything that I was going through in my worst possible moments. And it gave me a ladder, a place to grab on to, to begin to do work, to find my way back to health. And so ever since then, as I’ve coached, as I’ve walked alongside people in a lot of different venues, I’ve brought the Enneagram along as a tool, not that it’s the end all and be all.


but that it brings something to the conversation and to the table that people are able to really use and grow through. So that’s kind of the brief story of me and kind of why the Enneagram is important. And so it’s something that’s personally been beneficial, but also something I love to use with.


And I believe I did some Enneagram general work before I met you. You were at one of our Mastermind meetings and you gave such a great presentation to make the Enneagram more alive and real and understandable. And so there’s certain personality profiles, like a very simple one is disc. They have the Myers-Briggs, Drake and others that help you understand yourself and certain characteristics.


We also teach certain personality profiles in our training programs as well. Now the Enneagram is, we were talking about this in the green room. It’s quite complex. It’s very profound, very deep. It doesn’t just go into like, okay, well, you know, you’re like, I’m like a DI. So I’m very direct and I like people and that’s very helpful, easy to identify. And with the Enneagram, I’m a three or achiever.


and there are certain arrows and things, but it gives you a path of how to become better. I find for me, again, novice as a person, how to understand yourself, how to understand how you relate to people. And I think all personality profiles can do this. And the beauty with the Enneagram, it’s very rich. At the same time, my initial impression is it, it’s more complex and it takes some time to understand. And so what-


What I’d like to hear from you a little bit is, what’s the best context to explore the Enneagram and can it be used in a workplace environment as well for to be helpful with teams? I mean, our audience is dentistry. I know you’ve worked with dentists before. So give us a little bit of insight onto that. So the way I discover, the way I describe the Enneagram is that there are nine archetypes, nine dominant patterns.


And when we use the Enneagram psychologically and in the workplace, we’re really talking about nine strategies, nine different strategies that are used to be able to navigate life. All of us fall into a category of one or the other. Now there are a thousand shades of every number. So even though someone may say, oh, I’m a three, and Alex, you say, I’m a three.


But you may not look the same and people at first glance may not say, oh, of course. But that’s because the way that strategy shows up for you and the way you use it, the way that you’re genetically predisposed to it, the way that your environment plays onto it, it shows up in different ways. So there’s nuance in all of it. The most important thing is to understand that with each one of the strategies is that there is kind of a goal for that strategy.


And if you, once you understand the motivation behind what that strategy is, then you can begin to have a conversation, which to me is the most important part. This isn’t about boxing people in as it is trying to understand on a deeper level why they are doing what they’re doing. What’s their motivation? And is that working for them or is it not working for them? And when you understand that core motivation.


That is a very helpful tool. And the most important thing, I believe, the Enneagram brings to the table. You just mentioned an important part right there, Chris. And when I worked with another team on the Enneagram, in particular, the team members are thinking, I don’t want to be put in a box. And very quickly, as we started to unravel it, and we were focused on them professionally in this environment.


because it can go very deep into childhood and different things like that. And I didn’t want them to feel uncomfortable. So it does in some sense put a label, quote unquote, a label, but I love that it’s so varying and that you can really go from one to the other given your circumstances. So you’re finding that as well to be the case when you’re working with people.


When I work in almost any environment, and especially when I do corporate work or with people, what I tell them is the Enneagram is a conversational tool. So it’s not a definitive tool, it’s a conversational tool. Oh, Alex, you said that you type as an Enneagram 3. Tell me more about what that means for you. Tell me how that works for you. Oh, wow. That makes a lot of sense.


Whenever you begin to not make assumptions about the struggle is most people use the enneagram as a descriptive kind of cocktail party tool. Oh, this is what you are. Oh, I bet so and so is this. Let me look at how they’re their behavior. Let me know. I’m an Aquarius. So that how does that play out? But you know, the the I think you make a point because also when you take multiple enneagrams, you might get a different result. And I scored sometimes an eight, sometimes a seven different six. I mean, so


Actually, let me ask you this, and then I know Shelley’s got a bunch of questions for you as well, is you did a great job last time I seen you speak, is very briefly going through the nine types, just to give us kind of like a introduction to it. And I like what you said, it’s a conversational tool, it’s a place to start. And I think that when any personality profile, even disc, I think when you label people and you say, this is who you are, I can be a bit violent. That instead, it’s a start of…


getting to know each other more, getting to, it’s a starting point for discussion. So it’s so important how we set things up that whenever we’re doing personality work and personal development work, that we have a very safe place and safe facilitator that the goal is to help improve and so on. And it’s very important dentists and CEOs that are listening that you do the personal development work with yourself first before you bring it


to your team because you have to make sure that you’re developed, you’re there for their best interest and not to manipulate them. So Chris, give us just kind of a tour around some of the types. And it was always entertaining when you went through it. And then we’ll go into some other questions. Yeah, let me say two things about what you said and then I’ll take you around the text. So one of the common things that we say in the Enneagram world is your type is not an excuse for bad behavior. So…


Often when we talk about type, what we want to do is we want to talk about this coping strategy. We want to talk about how it helps you, how it may be working against you, and what you may need to do differently. Whenever people first learn the Enneagram, a lot of times it’s like, oh, look, I’m a five. Oh, look, I’m a three. Or, oh, look, what I am. And that’s a beginning of a conversation. What happens in the corporate world and in other places is that people then want to use it as a way to go, but this is who I am and there’s no change. And that’s not the…


purpose of the Enneagram. The other thing to say is, even though we may have one dominant strategy that we use, depending upon how we grew up and what we had to live through, we may have used other strategies that may be just as prevalent or close to in strength or in utilization. So for you, I show up like a three. Oh, I also have this eight energy that I also bring because of things I had to work through in my life.


So again, it’s about nuance and conversation, not about boxes. And I may be the only Enneagram person that would ever say this. I’m more concerned about knowing the person and using the Enneagram as a way to do that than seeing the person to know something about an Enneagram type. So that’s one of the things that I try to do. And last thing before I take you around, whenever I work with teams,


There has to be a level of trust and capacity for the team to do the work with the Enneagram. So I’ll talk to a CEO or I’ll talk to a team leader and I’ll go, listen, are there any major issues going on on your team that we need to talk about, address before we bring the Enneagram? Because if your team is struggling and there’s adversarial relationships, then you’re going to be more likely to see people using the Enneagram, weaponizing it against each other.


And so you really want to deal with any major issues before you go into the teamwork first. So that there’s a level of help, a level of trust, and so you can have that safe environment that you alluded to. So just a couple of things to think about as people are considering using the.


Makes sense? All right, nine types. Now everybody uses, the other thing to say is there’s no, the Enneagram is public domain. Anybody can say anything or write anything about the Enneagram. So what I’m going to share is my perspective, a culmination of things that I’ve learned, but there are different schools, different things. So always be careful about accessing the content and take what works for you and if it doesn’t, leave it.


but also be aware that anybody can say anything, especially if you do social media therapy and are scrolling through. Just be mindful of that as well. So the nine types, we start, the Enneagram is in a circle. And so at the very top, we start with Enneagram type nine. That’s the peacemaker of the Enneagram. Their main goal is to experience harmony both inside themselves and in relationships to other people.


That’s because their main concern is they want to show up in the world and how they show up is really really important And so they want to do things to stay in relationships with people to stay present And so that’s that’s how they show up in personality in terms of what they do They’re the peacekeepers and the mediators on the Enneagram. They have Enneagram type one


They’re where the obsessive compulsive perfectionistic tendencies come. Now they can do that for themselves. They can have perfectionistic high standards when it comes to other people or processes. And their main goal is to be good and to be right in what they do because they want to show up and show up well in their lives. Enneagram type twos are the helpers on the Enneagram.


They really are concerned about relationships. They really want to be liked. They want to be useful. They want to be indispensable. They want to provide service in what they do. So they generally move toward people and toward relationships. And that’s really important for them. As you said, Enneagram type 3s, those are the performers, the achievers on the Enneagram. They get more done than any other number on the Enneagram. And that’s because their focus is on being successful, accomplishing, reaching goals, alignment.


goal-oriented nature, that’s what’s really important to them. They can read the room, they can read what’s going on and what’s needed in a moment, and then they have the unique ability to kind of set things aside and focus on achieving goals. That’s a really important part for them. Fours are the individualist on the Enneagram. Their concern is showing up in an authentic, interesting way. They wanna be who they are, they want you to be who you are. They have the deepest,


and richest internal emotional terrain of all the numbers because they do a lot of deep introspection. Fives are the observers on the Enneagram, they’re the professionals, they’re the ones that are always looking and learning and taking in information. And they wanna be confident in the world. And the way that fives do that is by knowing enough information, by learning. And they just soak up all the information that they can.


Fives are the most objective of all the numbers on the Enneagram because they can kind of compartmentalize their feelings and look at things through this very clear lens. Sixes are the loyalists of the Enneagram. There are some Enneagram schools say there are more sixes in the world than any other number. In fact, half the population are probably made up of sixes. That’s the reason you see a lot of fear-based marketing and things that happen in the world because the main consideration for sixes is to be safe in the world.


And in order to be safe, you want to build relationships. You want to be loyal. You want to be committed to what’s going on and to the team. And so sixes are really focused in that. Sevens, they’re a really strong thinking type. And what they really want to make sure of is that they have positive opportunities. And so they spend a lot of time planning. They have a lot of fun. They bring a lot of energy to things. And they are always looking for the next thing to do. Anticipation is really important for sevens.


Keeping things going and keeping things interesting are really good for them. And they’re always bringing people along with them. And they are incredible charmers. They love to get along with people and bring positivity. And then you have eights. Eights are the boss. They’re the ones that bring energy to the Enneagram and they kind of have the motto of, lead, follow, or get out of the way. And eights really want you to deal with them.


They bring a lot of intensity to the situation. And their intensity is different than threes in that threes are very planning. Threes have a predictive mind. They’re anticipating ahead. Eights tend to show up, sense what’s going on, and block and tackle moving forward in that way. But they are very caring. They’re very confident. And the other thing I’d say about eights usually is they don’t like conflict, but they can do conflict.


And when every other number kind of gets anxious or tries to handle it in their way, for eights conflict slows them down because they believe that they really know you when they know what you’re willing to fight for. And if you’re willing to push up against them, that’s actually a way that draws them into a deeper relationship. So eights bring a lot of that confrontational deal with the energy to the table. And it really is a part of what we see. So that’s just a brief run around the Indian. That’s beautiful.


But yeah, most of the time we know more about ourselves when we see how we’re different. So those are the ways we are different. And there’s a lot of growth that brings us together. And I like what you said, they’re archetypes. And I believe in my readings of the Enneagram, we embody many of these qualities, some more so than others. And some of them we can learn from, like I’ve studied the three and eight, a part of me really likes the eight. The cavalier nature of the eight.


how the eight doesn’t give care what people think in general. The three does care. The three is about achieving what people think. And I think that some of the negative or, not negative, but areas of improvement of a three is to not care as much of what, do what’s right and not be afraid of losing or failing. That’s why the threes plan so much as to they don’t wanna fail.


Whereas the challenger or eight is like, we’re going to do this regardless. A lot of athletes can be eights and, you know, come in with a bull. And I think sometimes people may perceive me as an eight because I come in very strong. There’s a lot of planning and I really do care where people have to say. And what I like about the Enneagram is in many of the booklets and the training, they give you a prescription of what to do, uh, what to focus on to, to improve and grow in those areas and where you integrate or disintegrate. That’s a more complex, a more advanced.


process. So I like the idea of archetype and listening to you, I think in listening, you kind of answered a question I was considering that Shelley and I is I think when it comes to personality profiling or personality training, especially the integrand being so nuanced, it’s all about the facilitator and you can have an a more simplified personality profile like disk, which we teach a lot and we train, but even disk can be a doorway into.


great growth, but also disintegration or problems if you’re not facilitating well. Because like you said earlier, Chris, this is a start of a conversation. And if the facilitator is not bringing empathy and compassion and with a clear intention, then there’s going to be problems. Now on the plus side, you can see these issues that you just raised, the one through nine, these qualities to start questioning and exploring ourselves. It’s a great…


benefit that we can have. And I think teams that are listening, dentists that are listening, that this is a great goal as an organization to be able to do this type of personal development work, starting with the leader, then the leadership team, being very close, being able to be vulnerable. That’s one of the qualities that are critical. Remember at the Mastermind, that was one of our themes with the vulnerability. And then bringing that with your entire team.


and making that part of your culture that we can be vulnerable, that we’re here to grow. And that I believe with Teams is that the highest ideal, what we advocate with is you’re not just having somebody to have a job come in and clock out and leave. We’re looking that we’re going to spend a lot of time together, working together, and that we’re going to not only grow the business, but grow everybody as people. That by making you all into better people, happier people, more productive, that you


that’s better for the business and better for the patients and the customers. So that’s, that’s, that’s, that I would say is a fully integrated practice in business when they’re able to make those investments and have those conversations. I agree. A couple of thoughts, and again, I’ll use some Enneagram speak. So in the Enneagram world, in our personality, we all have an area of focus. Now what you focus on also determines what you miss.


So whenever you’re working with a team and you’re bringing people together, let’s say you’re someone who’s starting a business, you have the drive, let’s say you’re an eight, right? So you have this eight energy, you’re blocking and tackling, you’re making things happen, you’re bringing people onto your staff. Well, eights aren’t always open to a lot of feeling and emotion. So emotional intelligence for an eight can be a growth area, but now you have a staff.


Now you’re trying to maintain, not just getting an entrepreneurial endeavor started, now you want to maintain morale on your team. And now you don’t have everybody around you that’s an eight. Now you have all these different numbers. And so having emotional intelligence and understanding how valuable that is, because no matter how great your dream is, if you don’t have people there that balance, that augment, that bring everything to the table, then you’re going to end up going through churn. You’re going to have continual turnover.


You’re going to be using a lot of money hiring new people, looking for new people. And instead of creating some stability where people can stay, it can cost a business a lot of money not to do that work. And so that’s really important that when you think about emotional intelligence, development, this serves an economic purpose. And sometimes for those of us that are driven people that are goal oriented and tend to push forward, that can feel frustrating, not as useful, not helpful. It’s not as comfortable.


And so doing work with the Enneagram helps people see that. And it also helps be able to keep the team and manage that in a way that helps raise productivity and also not lose money and capital as you’re having to have a lot of turnover. Well, emotional intelligence, as the Harvard studies show, is a greater predictor of success than intelligence IQ. And not just from a financial standpoint, also from how do we define success?


I think a lot of it is happiness, wellbeing, and I’ll tell you, like, and I’m not shy to share, but being a big achiever, whether you call that a three or an eight or whatever, it was all about getting things done, accolades, you know, my law degree, MBA, and achieving all those things. And, but I realized as in your bio, you had those epiphanies throughout your life, that that wasn’t what brought happiness. And it’s still part of it.


if you can do it because you enjoy doing it, not because what will they achieve with, you know, again, this goes back to childhood, you were talking about to Shelley, right? I’m pleasing my parents or this is what society thinks I should do. The process of emotional intelligence is understanding yourself, understanding others, but starting with yourself, what drives you and how to be the best you can be as a fully integrated, a wholesome person that yes, I believe everyone listening.


should never settle. You should have all of it. You should have financial abundance, but also spiritual and health abundance and wellness. Like all that’s important. And then you’re not, you’re proactive, meaning you have a choice in life. You’re not reactive where what is scripted for you is going to happen. Your political party, your religion, your whatever it is that you’re just going to be a robot and do. You can be free and choose


and make those decisions and have it all, right? So I think I like when you mentioned emotional intelligence. It’s a great point there. And it’s fun. Once you get past the, and you’re in a safe place and you get past the fear, it’s a really rewarding situation to say, look at these capacities I have within myself and I have around me. And lastly, we’re working, we’re gonna do this journey, right? And I say this with the leadership team.


And I repeat myself quite a bit, you know, I repeat for myself at least. And the joke is you may have heard it, but imagine how many times I heard it. Cause it’s in my head is that you’re on this journey with, with your team and these people around you enjoy that journey, right? You’re working so hard to achieve and you’re going to get there. Everybody. If you follow these steps, you know, at all star, we teach you steps of, of, of financial and personal abundance. If you follow it, you’ll, you will succeed. Why? Because we modeled.


other people that have done it thousands and thousands of times. But in that journey, which will take time, enjoy the journey, enjoy the process and growth. So that’s my piece. And I know, Shelly, you had some questions. I make sure you asked one. One of my questions was, you’ve done it so well already is simplifying. How do you simplify something that is so complex in your your description of it was amazing. I love that.


I know when you’re reading it, when you, I read the book, The Road Back to You, the book, The Road Back to You, read that and one of the things that it said at the beginning is you’re probably gonna be uncomfortable as you read some of these chapters and that’s a good inkling that you’re about to read about yourself. And it was so true when I would get there, I thought, ooh, I don’t really love that. But it was because I could see myself in that chapter as I went around.


But what I found is that I would find that in multiple chapters. And so you mentioned, you know, you can have different parts and different levels, different Enneagram numbers. I’ve taken this four or five times now. I’ve been a three, a seven, an eight, and a nine. So I’m just waiting for everything else to come around at some point. Explain to me, how does that happen? How can I be, am I, do I have a bipolar issue? Like what is going on?


What? I’m a chameleon, right? Yeah, we’re not getting into the deep mental health issues there. No. Yeah. What’s important to understand, first of all, online tests and what people will take are only about 65 to 75 percent correct. And every test has a different algorithm that’s identifying different markers. So, what I tell people is that it’s a journey to land in your numbers.


So as you’re having conversations with a coach or someone like me, as you’re reading materials, as you’re going online, use these as data points that are continuing to give you information because only you inside of you can land on what’s my motivation. Is it to be good? Is it to be loved? Is it to be successful? Is it to avoid pain? Is it to be the boss and to be in control? Is it to be invulnerable?


The only ways that you know that are whenever back to emotional intelligence, you’re able to create the space to listen to what really resonates with you. Now, the majority of the people don’t have that space and don’t create that kind of opportunity to listen to themselves. And that, even the process of landing on an Enneagram type, is a journey of self-knowledge.


Some people think, oh, once I learn my Enneagram type, then I’ll know. Actually the process is a part of the journey. You know what I mean? The learning and the typing is a part of the journey. I like what you said about resonance. I think that when you read the types of Shelley speaking to you, when you’re reading the types, and this is the idea of resonating, I do some, I’ve interviewed Sami Jami Berg, who’s a focusing teacher. I’ll have her on again.


And there’s this process that Eugene Genlin and Carl Rogers put together called focusing where this is idea of getting in touch with the felt sense. And this is resonance, which you’re going to feel in your body, a warmth, something that you know, or goosebumps to say, ah, that that’s it. So like I said before, intellectually, I love the eight. I think that’s kind of it’s cool. You know, he’s a badass, right? Or she. And then when I when I started reading the three, the childhood stuff, it started resonating, I was getting goosebumps. Not that I wanted to be a three, but I’m like, this resonates with me.


And I think that’s also why it’s important to have a facilitator like Chris or somebody who’s teaching Enneagram or whatever. That’s what we talk about coaching, right? To help us work and refine that journey. And it’s a journey. It’s a process. And having that facilitator, having that physical presence will help us versus just reading a book. We’re on our left brain. We have to get to that.


that felt sense. Now, whenever you, when we use, so back, so again, I didn’t say this specifically, but just to reiterate, we have access to all the coping strategies. There are things that we’re all perfectionists about. There are moments that we can stand up and take on conflict. What happens for most of us is we don’t make those choices consciously. We just kind of react to life and draw those resources up depending on what’s going on around us. Part of what the Enneagram is about is balance.


And so just like you said, oh, I really like that energy of the eight. There’s times I want to get up and be able to do something without having to listen to the chatter of my brain. Tell me that I need to be concerned about what people think about this. So if I want to draw on that energy cons consciously, how do I do that? If I, you know, if I want to be more emotionally available and build better relationships, then how do I, how do I harness that energy of the two that does that?


Hey, you know what? I need to set some things aside and get something done. I feel like I really get lost in my emotions. So as a three is able to set aside their feelings to accomplish what they need to do, how can I have some emotional guardrails that help me operate and achieve the things that I want to achieve? Those are all conscious choices. Those are, that’s not reactive, that’s being responsive. And those are some of the tools that the Enneagram can give people. I like what you’re going back again to what you said. The whole theme of this is maybe


We can even call it title, the conversation of the Enneagram, because you said it’s a conversation piece. An Enneagram is public domain or open source, if you will. And it really can be utilized in multiple contexts. There’s the Enneagram that’s kind of more religious based. There’s those that’s more secular. I’m even thinking about kind of merging with focusing. Yeah, I do know people in the focusing community that do Enneagram work.


And then also you have what’s called IFS or internal family systems where that theory is that we within us have multiple parts, right, that are operative, these archetypes within us and that we may want to, and this even goes to Tony Robbins will talk about this, we can channel that energy. So we may be naturally something, I’m using me as an example, it’s like we’re saying a three, but I may need the eight energy right now or I may need the peacemaker. Was it the number nine? Nine.


Or I might need the helper mode, the two, to kind of channel the energy. And we all, the Enneagram says in multiple interpretations that we have these, all these qualities within us. And if we use this, we have multiple people within us, we can channel what we need in the moment. So for example, the perfectionist may not be helpful when we’re going to start do a presentation live. It’s good practicing. When we’re alive, we can understand.


You’re going to fumble, you know, say things. I probably made a bunch of mistakes in the podcast. It’s okay. Most people aren’t going to notice. And it’s like when you’re giving a presentation, you’re out there. And so that might be the eight energy I’m going out there and just, and often they’re not looking for what you say. They’re looking at how you made them feel. Ah, you know, so we can channel that a bit. And I think that’s what you’re speaking to your Chris. We can draw on those energies as archetypes when we need it. And again, reiterating it’s the


uh, any of these personalities are, and this is the same thing with coaching. We all are coaching similar stuff, but some do it in a different way and in a way that, uh, relates to you. I’m coming out with a video later, which is good, or it depends on when this is released and it’s all about, you should always be coaching, uh, and I think everybody, if you’re not a business owner, you should have a therapy or


If you are a business owner, you should have a therapeutic coach, which can be Chris or others. And in addition, you should have a business coach or a dental coach because coaching is so critical if you look at across the board, helping you to see what you aren’t really as available to you. Oh, but my point is this. I have this always be


coaching ABC, meaning you will be on a journey until you find the coach that fits the best with you. I love to say, you know, all of our coaches will find you the best one for Dendal, but they may not work with you. But don’t give up. I just went to the dentist today and I joke, well, if I had a bad experience at the dentist, would I just stop going? No, because my teeth will fall out or I’ll get, I will miss a sickness that they didn’t catch. So the same thing with personal development is coaching. It’s


Especially if you, if in your heart of hearts, you want to grow, you like to be the best quote unquote, financially and personally, then it’s coaching is the journey. And you just got to find, keep the other. You’ll hear it. I say it a lot. I heard from somebody before you kiss the keep kissing frogs until you find your prince or princess, right? You keep going through that journey. You find what works for you.


So that’s my thought. Any other questions, Shelley, for our expert, Chris? No, he answered them. Isn’t he amazing? He make it so simple. I know, and we came in this, Chris, we came in with the assumption that the endogram is so complex. And then hearing you again, your voice, you make it so simple. And I think that’s the mark of an expert, taking that complex and making it simple for people to understand and relate.


That might also be the emotional intelligence you develop being a pastor is helpful to know that. But Chris, thank you so much for being on the program. Chris, for our listeners, they want to learn more about the Enneagram or have you as a speaker, as a coach. How do they find out more about you? Reach out to you. You can check out my website, You can also mail me at chris at And I love to have a conversation. Point you in the right direction. Awesome.


share resources and see how I can serve you. I’d love to. Awesome, well thank you, Chris. And thank you, Shelley, as well for joining us. Remember to follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube. Get the episodes as they are released and share with your friends. Until next time, go out there and be an All-Star.


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